Buying Bee Safe Plants: How to keep pesticides out of your garden

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In this episode we discuss the pervasive issue of pesticide-treated nursery plants. We explore the harmful effects of insecticides, fungicides, and herbicides on pollinators like bees and butterflies, and discuss practical approaches to sourcing and advocating for pesticide-free plants. Sharon Selvaggio also offers insight into the safe purchase of younger plants, the importance of community organizing, and effective communication with garden centers. The episode concludes with a hopeful outlook on changing practices within the industry and practical steps for gardeners to contribute to safer environments for pollinators.

Matthew: Welcome to Bug Banter with the Xerces Society, where we explore the world of invertebrates and discover how to help these extraordinary animals. If you want to support our work, go to xerces.org/donate.

Rachel: Hi, I’m Rachel Dunham in Missoula, Montana.

Matthew: And I'm Matthew Shepherd in Portland, Oregon.

Rachel: There may be a hidden danger lurking in the plants you purchase. Many plants sold at stores and nurseries, even native plants, are pre-treated with pesticides. So while trying to provide habitat for pollinators, you could be exposing them to chemicals. How do you know if plants have been treated with pesticides? Where can you find plants that haven’t been treated?

Rachel: Joining us to explore this topic is Sharon Selvaggio. Sharon is a pesticide program specialist for the Xerces Society. She assists our staff, program partners, and the public to reduce reliance on pesticides, and understand the risk these chemicals pose to invertebrates. Sharon also leads the Buying Bee-Safe Plants campaign. Sharon previously worked at Northwest Center for Alternatives to Pesticides, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and the U.S. Forest Service, and integrates her focus on pesticides with her experience managing natural areas and working lands.

Rachel: Welcome to Bug Banter, Sharon! We’re very excited to have you here!

Sharon: Thank you so much, Rachel and Matthew. I'm really happy to be here, too.

Matthew: Been looking forward to this one, so thanks, Sharon. I'm guessing that our listeners already know that pesticides are harmful to bees, butterflies, and other insects, but to start this conversation, can you tell us a little about the risks to pollinators from pesticides, and in particular from pesticide-treated nursery plants?

Sharon: Sure. At Xerces, as well as far beyond that, pesticides are considered one of the leading threats to invertebrates. And when we say pesticides, we are really using that term as an umbrella term. In other words, it's not just the insecticides, but it's also fungicides, and herbicides. And so when we look at those three groups, insecticides are designed, of course, to kill or harm insects. When they don't kill, they can often cause other harmful effects that show up more gradually. This can be things like reducing queen production in bees, interfering with learning, navigation, causing reduced food intake.

Sharon: And then—so, insecticides, we kind of expect those harmful effects, but fungicides and herbicides, they're less likely to cause death, but as we've looked more closely over time, we've found that there's more subtle effects. For instance, the strobin fungicides cause reduced wing size in monarchs. Bees have been found to have reduced larval survival, or interference with the immune system as a result of exposure to fungicides or herbicides.

Sharon: And one thing that you may hear when you kind of pay attention to pesticides is the dose makes the poison. But when you look at certain fungicides and insecticides in combination, we have an even bigger concern because some fungicides essentially make insecticides more toxic. That means that the insecticides can be toxic at even a lower dose. So that's really a problem because these fungicides and insecticides are commonly found in the same matrix, whether it's plants, water, et cetera, so. And nursery plants—I'll talk a little bit more about this in a minute—but we know that they contain a lot of different pesticides. There've been a number of studies about that. So yeah, a variety of different issues associated with pesticides and with nursery plants.

Matthew: Thank you. So that's the why. I mean, why we should be concerned. And I'd like to shift to the how. How do the pesticides get into the plants? Is it while they're at the store waiting for us to come along and put them in our car? Or is it earlier in the supply chain?

Sharon: Nursery growers are farmers, essentially, and like other farmers, they use pesticides to try to make sure that the plants don't succumb to insects and diseases. And in particular, nurseries are really concerned about the appearance of the plant when it sells, and that's because all of us, as customers, have demonstrated over the years that we care how pretty and how healthy a plant looks. So that's what their interest is—making sure that the plant will sell if they've invested this time. The nursery industry is also regulated by states. And that means that if inspectors find insects or diseases on a shipment, or a shipment that's about to go out, nurseries could actually lose the opportunity to sell any of those plants if they don't deal with it. So from a nursery industry perspective, pesticides are like insurance. They help them avoid these problems that could result down the road.

Sharon: As far as when they go on, I believe that most of the pesticides are applied when they're at the wholesaler. There's usually a retailer that a lot of home gardeners will buy their plants from—a garden center—but they usually don't produce the plants, they're usually produced by a wholesaler, or maybe a series of wholesalers. And because retailers hold the plant for a limited amount of time, I don't think that's where most of the pesticides are being applied. Although I have talked to garden centers who have told me they've applied pesticides, as well.

Sharon: And pesticides can show up in plants even if they're not being directly applied. For instance, they might be in the water that the plants are absorbing. Pesticides might be absorbed by the nursery plants through drift from neighboring agricultural operation. But a lot of the pesticides that have been documented in plants, are actually registered to be used on nursery plants. And growers talk about using these, they’re listed in extension documents. So we know that a lot of things that have shown up in studies are actually being applied deliberately.

Matthew: I can see why from the grower's perspective, it makes sense. It seems logical, if you're a grower, that you want your product to get successfully to the retail outlet, and then someone to pick it up. But what pesticides could be used on these plants along the way? And I know you've mentioned fungicides, insecticides—it seems like there's lots of different kinds that may be applied.

Sharon: There are a lot of different kinds. If you look at the list, it's actually really long. And when you think about it, a lot of nursery plants are at least started and sometimes finished in a warm, humid greenhouse. And that can just be a breeding ground for all kinds of things. Because it's like going to the tropics and things just—. For the plants to stay ahead of the diseases, and the insect pests that can really proliferate—, it can be challenging. There are things like powdery mildew, root rots, aphids, thrips. These are all the things that are sort of common. And so to combat those, a lot of different insecticides, fungicides—that helps these nurseries produce the appealing plants that sell well.

Matthew: I'm sure that neonicotinoids is one that many listeners are aware of. Is that still—that particular group—still a concern? Or have the manufacturers moved on to new chemicals now?

Sharon: Yes to both of those questions. For a gardener, or an organization like ourselves out doing restoration, we're putting plants in, we're wanting that habitat to last for a long time. The primary concern is really whether the plant's gonna be toxic to pollinators once we put it in the ground, or whether that once that gardener puts it in. How toxic? How long will it be toxic? We think about what's on the plant when it's sold. And how long is it gonna last, and how toxic is it? And so when we think about that kind of framework, systemic insecticides really rise to the top of the list for the more long-term impacts. They can last for a really long time in plants. There's documentation from studying neonicotinoids—one of the group of insecticides—that they can last six years. The longest I've ever seen is 12 years in a horse chestnut tree, which is really shocking. But months to two to three years is very common to see in the literature. So neonicotinoids, or neonics, as we usually call them, those are really the best known of the systemic insecticides. But there are other systemic insecticides that are also highly toxic, and also quite long-lived. So we have concern about those, as well.

Sharon: Now contact insecticides that don't get taken up in the plants like systemic insecticides do, those are of concern, as well. But those usually degrade faster because throughout they're being exposed to UV light, to the rain, and so on, so they usually break down faster. We're not as concerned if those who are gonna last for six months, one year. They can be highly toxic on contact for a short period of time. But it's the systemic insecticides that really rise to the top of the list.

Matthew: Sure. And I think you did explain it, but systemic means that once the product's been applied it's absorbed into the tissue of the plant, rather than just being on the outside, isn't it?

Sharon: That's correct. And it also moves within the plant. And so that means that if it's absorbed through the roots, it can get all the way up to the flowers, and get in the pollen and nectar. Or it can get to the leaves, for the case of caterpillars. Not every systemic insecticide is exactly the same. We actually have a resource about this at our website. But some are more highly systemic. In other words, they move a lot more rapidly or they move better. But in general, systemic pesticides—because also a lot of fungicides are systemic—they get absorbed, and they moved within the plant.

Sharon: We also know more about the effect on honey bees than we do on bumble bees, or on butterflies. So we really do advocate like a precautionary approach, because we have to go with what we do know, which is mostly about honey bees, but the indicators, let's just say, don't look great for those other groups of species when we have information on them, as well. So we do advocate being careful with all pesticides, and in particular, these systemic insecticides.

Matthew: Yeah. And so that leads me into what was gonna my next question, which is: are all these pesticides harmful to pollinators? Are there some that are more at risk? Or certain pollinators that may be better able to, I guess, handle the toxins?

Sharon: You know, there have been studies on like different species of bees, and you can have like a distribution of sensitivity. And so sometimes you'll find that some bees are relatively insensitive, and other bees are more sensitive. Again, in general with a precautionary approach because there is not enough literature to have perfect knowledge about everything. We go off of what we know with honey bee studies, and we try to make sure that we advocate a cautionary approach based upon what we know, which is again, not great with a lot of these insecticides.

Rachel: That makes a lot of sense. So I've bought quite a few plants—native plants—over the years, and occasionally I'll actually see tags at stores that say that the plants are pollinator-friendly because they've been treated with pesticides. And I've even seen one that had, “This plant has been treated with neonicotinoids,” and it blows my mind because it's so backwards. If it's been treated, then it really isn't pollinator-friendly. The plants don't have a tag to tell us whether they've been treated or not, and what they've been treated with. How do people know? How do consumers know if the plants are safe?

Sharon: Let's look at that term “pollinator-friendly.” There is no national standard for the use of that term. There’re no rules about who gets to use it, or what it means. And so we can't assume that a pollinator-friendly label really means anything. In Xerces, we have a lot of biologists who have figured out over the years like which plants are pollinator-attractive. And I think oftentimes that's what people mean by that label. These plants tend to be highly attractive to certain pollinators—you're gonna see a lot of bees.
Pollinator-safe is a really different concept. And sometimes—. We also don't have a definition for that—this definition of safety. But when people use this term, “pollinator-friendly,” it doesn't mean that the plant is free from harmful pesticides.

Sharon: As an example, a few years ago we purchased and tested milkweeds that we bought around the country—33 different retailers, 235 total milkweed plants. And on average, we found that each milkweed contained 12 different pesticides. A variety of insecticides, fungicides, and herbicides. But we also found that the plants that actually had wildlife tags that implied pollinator-friendly or anything like that, they actually, as a group, contained higher levels of a certain fungicide that causes monarchs to have smaller wing size when they transition to the adult stage. Which is thought to potentially affect their migratory ability.
And so it was sort of a demonstration that we need to be careful with these terms.

Sharon: I understand the impetus to use these terms. And we all need to be a little bit cautious, as consumers, to not make assumptions about what it means. And this goes back to the somewhat challenging work, but worthwhile work, of getting to know your local garden center. Who owns it? Who's doing the work in the nursery of buying those plants? Because usually, those garden centers will buy from multiple wholesalers. And they are the ones who best know the wholesalers. They are the ones who can, if they ask the right questions, have better information about the practices at those wholesalers. So again, it's really worthwhile to go in and talk to your local retailer, talk to your garden center, and ask them, “Are you talking to your wholesalers about their practices? If so, what can you tell me about which of those wholesalers really have a really strong emphasis on prevention to ward off pest and disease problems before they arise? Which ones are very careful about which pesticides they use?” and so on.

Sharon: We try to help people with our Buying Bee-Safe Plants fact sheet—which it can be found at our website—[it] gives local gardeners, and people a tool, and kind of a set of questions to go in and ask. And groups of gardeners might be more effective than individuals, especially if you organize within a particular community of all utilizing the same local retailer. Because just like anything, people are gonna respond to the squeaky wheel. And it's important to think about organizing around this if you're gonna go in and talk to your nursery. So, yeah.

Rachel: Definitely. And you had talked about the Buying Bee-Safe Plants. We have a few publications. We'll be sure to put those in the show notes. Are there resources for people to find pesticide-free plants?

Sharon: I'm really excited to say we have a new YouTube video. It's available at our Bee-Safe Nursery Plants website. It goes over the key principles, and it showcases good practices by three nurseries. And it's really great for home gardeners who are trying to think through this, but it's also good for other nurseries. We really recommend that. We'll put the link in the show notes.

Sharon: We also have—and I love this—our former social media person, Kailee, put together a really great social media reel series a couple of years ago. And these kind of demonstrate how to go in and talk to a nursery. Like, “How do I approach this whole conversation? How do I get the information that I'm seeking? How do I ask these questions respectfully so that they're not hostile to me? How do I utilize this information?” So I really recommend both of those.

Sharon: To get to a question about pesticide-free plants, it's very rare to find pesticide-free nurseries. In other words, nurseries that absolutely use no pesticides. Remember I'm talking insecticides, fungicides, and herbicides. Fungicides, in particular, seem to be like the most commonly used pesticides by a lot of nurseries. I've been talking to nurseries for years and I've only found a couple of nurseries who are truly pesticide free. But what we do find a lot is nurseries who use pesticides that are considered organic. These are often called biopesticides or microbial pesticides rather than conventional synthetic pesticides.

Sharon: If people want the safest plants—. This is where I think people really need to start thinking about getting creative. Banding together, thinking beyond the individual, even thinking beyond their local store. People can think about their local landscapers, you know, who are the big businesses? Who are the landscapers in your communities? What about the associations of those landscapers? What about conservation districts? These stores buy a lot of plants, but so do landscapers. They buy a ton of plants, especially for people that are revamping their whole entire yard, or for development. Conservation districts buy a lot of plants for people that are doing restoration work. So all of these sort of different organizations are buying plants. If we start to communicate with those kinds of organizations, or work with our own garden clubs—if we're really interested in working in the residential space—we're more likely, I think, to start to have an impact at a larger scale.

Matthew: You started the Buying Bee-Safe Plants campaign a couple of years ago. Have you seen a response from people? Are we seeing people changing their plant-buying habits?

Sharon: There's definitely, you know, been a response. There is a really strong interest. And we saw that by organizing some “go to your nursery” days early on. People are even willing to pay more—this is actually like in the scientific literature—especially the people who buy a lot of plants, the really avid gardeners. And this is something that people can use as leverage, essentially. Yes, a lot of people are talking to their nurseries.

Sharon: However, what I've also heard back from people is that it's a frustrating experience. This can be because sometimes when they're at the retailer, the cashier, they don't necessarily know, and you can't always get to the person who might know. Sometimes even when you can, the manager might not have really clear answers. So I think that rather than giving up—which, you know, can be tempting to do if you go in and you have a couple of kind of frustrating experiences—a more viable approach is, as I mentioned before, is for people to organize in broader groups. And these could be garden clubs, Bee Cities, landscaper businesses on their own, or local garden clubs really connecting with landscaper businesses and associations, conservation districts, and so on. There's more that I'm probably not even thinking of. And with the ultimate goal of sourcing for all these people in the community—pollinator-safe plants—people can start to work with nurseries ahead of time.

Sharon: People can use a fact sheet that we put out there about six months ago—it's called Supplying Pollinator-Safe Nursery Plants: Avoiding hidden Risks. And in that fact sheet, we outlined the most concerning and the most risky pesticides to avoid. And so it's straightforward. People can take this and say, “Oh, we can manage without these,” or, “We can manage without 90% of these, and that's what we're gonna do.” On that fact sheet—you know, it's not hard and fast rules—but we've tried to put together, based on the science, based on not only bees that are adults, but also bees that are in the larvae form. Not only adult moths and butterflies, but also caterpillars. So we tried to make it comprehensive. Tried to look at the data and come up with essentially a list of things—for some to avoid altogether, some to avoid just the final two weeks.

Sharon: It's probably self-evident, but when people band together, you have more power. And I think that people can utilize these tools now in a way that might be more effective. Working with nurseries to say, “Look, this is what we want. Can you grow these things for us in this way?” If nurseries have time to prepare, if they know that there is an audience, a buying cohort, or like that they're gonna be able to sell these plants, then they're more likely to be receptive to these ideas. I think what nurseries have told us is that they can get frustrated because it's like one person at a time, where people come in, and they're hostile. I think nurseries need time to plan for this, too. And so what I'm advocating for these days is to think bigger, think broader, think further ahead, when you can. And organize, and work with your nurseries. We have definitely found that it works for us. That's what we're doing now. We have over 10 nurseries that we're actively sourcing from now who are utilizing these exact same techniques that I am talking about.

Sharon: I don't wanna lose the emphasis on prevention and monitoring, which we really focused on in our earlier fact sheets. Those are the foundation of all of this. Nurseries can't avoid pesticides if they're not changing the conditions that will result in disease and insect outbreaks. They have to do that. And a lot of nurseries are. So we need to keep the emphasis on prevention, on monitoring, as well. But we're also getting more specific about which pesticides we think need to be avoided. It's not just neonics, it's more than that.

Matthew: I can tell you that my experience of talking to nurseries and garden centers has pretty much been what you've described. I've either asked someone and they're like, “I don't know.” Or I happen to have spoken to someone in the management, and on at least one occasion, got some serious pushback from even suggesting that these products are not good for pollinators. So it's definitely out there, but there also are signs of hope. I, for a number of years, I've been invited to go and talk to a sustainable landscaping class at a local community college. And the person who runs that class, every time I bring this topic up, he stands up and he gives an example [of] his own, as a landscaper, and his own contracts, of how they've done contract grows for specific projects. For pesticide-free and essentially pollinator-safe plants. So there are some change afoot out there, but I know it's gonna take a while.

Sharon: Yeah. We have a great example of a garden center locally, here in Portland—you all probably know of it, but I’ll just say their name because they did this a long time ago, and they were really an example—Garden Fever, in Portland. When the Wilsonville bee kill happened, which killed 50,000 bumble bees due to the application of a pesticide—now, that was a landscape application, not a nursery—but they immediately realized that they needed to be thinking about their sourcing. And they immediately called all their suppliers. They set up a place in the store where they made sure that customers could find neonic-free plants. And this was a great example from a retailer about what they can do.

Sharon: We know more now, we think it needs to go beyond that, but every little bit that people can do with the capacity that they have. And nurseries who are retailers, they know all these wholesalers. They're working with them all the time. They're usually asking for plants that sell, because they're desirable, and they're beautiful plants, or they may attract a lot of pollinators. But to go a step farther and ask about these pesticides, and actually even require it if they're going to buy—that really can go a long way. But yes, there are signs of hope. There are great examples out there of people doing this kind of stuff.

Rachel: Thank you for that, Sharon. So, if we do have listeners that own a garden center, or work at a garden center, or own a nursery, or are a grower themselves, what would you say is a good first step? If they wanna get involved in figuring out how to provide plants that are actually safe.

Sharon: Yeah. We really focus on prevention and monitoring as the foundational steps. And it's interesting talking to nurseries, because some nurseries have so many practices around prevention and monitoring, and some don't. And so there's always something to be learned there. Growers have a lot of access to different resources through extension, through workshops, at conferences, through grower associations, and things like that. And sometimes—having gone to a number of these conferences, and things—like sometimes, the focus is on the pesticide as the quick fix, or the only fix. And I think growers who are really interested in this can help guide their local associations and trade groups to really try to invest more. Whether it's research, whether it's education in: what are those prevention methods? What are the best ways of monitoring when you have a large nursery? A lot of nurseries that are small, they monitor pretty much every plant, at least once a week. It gets harder when you have a really big nursery. So anyway, those things are so important because by reducing, as much as possible, the conditions that foster pest outbreaks, and having in place early detection programs, nurseries can stay ahead of the curve and have less requirement for pesticides.

Sharon: So utilize the resources that are there, push for the changes. We offer a fact sheet for nurseries that are starting out on this. It's called Offering Bee-Safe Plants: A Guide for Nurseries. There might be something in there for every nursery. But it's especially maybe helpful for nurseries that are just starting to think about this.
And I mentioned our Supplying Pollinator-Safe Nursery Plants fact sheet, as well. That is the fact sheet that sort of outlines look, if you're gonna go down the path of trying to avoid certain pesticides because of their harm to pollinators, these are the ones that you wanna focus on.

Rachel: I love that a lot of these solutions are coming together, and helping each other in more of a community sense, so, thank you.

Sharon: Yeah.

Matthew: There's some hope. And I do think that we seem to be on the cusp of change, as well. Which is encouraging. Because I know if you go to a garden center now and ask, “How was this grown?” That plant might be three, four years old depending on what you're buying. It's not a quick thing to just suddenly turn ‘round and go, “Oh, here's another one.” Earlier, you were saying how pesticide-free really isn't something that people are gonna come across. And, it's not always an easy, straightforward thing to find bee-safe plants. So a gardener, they want this plant because it's beautiful, it's gonna provide nectar for the bees and the butterflies they want to encourage for their garden. And yet there's no alternative to buying a plant, and so we know it's going to be slightly of a risk. So once you have that plant back home, are there ways to reduce the risk?

Sharon: Yeah. First of all, I would recommend that people buy smaller, younger plants whenever they can. From the nurseries that I've talked to, it seems like the faster nurseries can get these plants moved on, the less pesticide they have to use. This is just an observation, but it seems like the longer a nursery has to take care of a plant, the more likely they are to see some kind of problem. So if you can buy a plant young, buy it small, it'll probably also establish better in your garden. If you can keep up with keeping an eye on it when it's young and needs a little bit more water, and all that. It also will be a lot easier to net. If you are worried about pesticides being on the plants because you haven't been able to get a real clear answer, netting the plant with some kind of relatively fine cloth—I can't remember the trade names of some of these things—but that's probably the easiest way to make sure that most insects wouldn't be able to get through. And that would protect from bees and from butterflies—if it's like a butterfly- attractive plant, because they're gonna be visiting the leaves. Some people say cut the flowers, and that'll work for bees, but it may not help protect butterflies or moths that are—other insects that are visiting the plant. So buy small, if you can, and net the plant for like the first growing season. You’re probably mostly safe after that. If you wanna take extra precaution, you can keep it on longer. So those are the two things I would recommend.

Sharon: I would not recommend—we used to recommend this—but taking the soil off the roots. It can help get rid of more of the pesticide, if the pesticides in the soil, but it's also more likely to possibly make you plant a little bit more vulnerable to other stressors, because they're kinda—they're losing some of the root mass, as well, if you take all that soil away. It's just kind of hard to do that well.

Matthew: No, totally. Part of buying a plant and bringing it to your garden is trying to reduce that disturbance—.

Sharon: Yes.

Matthew: —to give it a better chance to get established. And you say buy them smaller when they're younger, that's cheaper, too. So there's a cost saving for gardeners, even if you have to wait a little longer to have that big display of flowers, so

Sharon: That's true. And of course, small is relative. Like some species grow really fast in one year—like an alder tree might grow like a foot or more—so just think about it relative to the plant that you're buying.

Matthew: Yeah. And then, of course, it's like in the end, it's almost what's worse to grow nothing for insects to forage on, or to have plants carrying pesticides, and taking some steps to minimize the risk to pollinators? Because it also seems like it's a short-term thing, in a way, because you just said that—take some care in the first year, and then the second year you're probably okay. Because it is that long-term benefit that we're all really seeking.

Sharon: This is an important question, and you frame it as a dilemma, like an either or. I don't know if you've ever read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, but he talks about going through the horns of the dilemma, and that's what I wanna do. I think we can do both. I think that we can establish habitat, choose the right plants that are native, pollinator-attractive plants that are needed in our landscapes that are really useful for a lot of different species, and do our best to source those from nurseries that are using safe practices. Again, I'm starting to think that the best way to do that is to try to work within community to do that—working with your garden club, working with Bee City, working with your landscape association, et cetera. So those of us working at restoration at larger scales, we're already working basically at scale. And we definitely should be trying to do that. For small gardeners, depending upon your time and ability to do that with people. But every little bit helps, and I think we don't need to choose. I think we can do both.

Rachel: I like that answer. Sharon, thank you for answering our numerous questions about this topic. I have certainly learned a lot. I love the advice, and how we're moving forward with this. And I hope our listeners learn something, as well. And I like the ending of hope, and action that we can take, and the difference that we can make in our own communities, and our own backyards.

Rachel: So we're gonna end on our two questions. And this is the first time we've had you here on Bug Banter, and so we get to ask our original questions. And this one is my favorite, so I'm excited I get to ask you, but what inspired you to study pesticides and to go into insect conservation?

Sharon: Well, it wasn't a linear the path at all, like some of our biologists here. I grew up in the city, like I would play with worms on the sidewalk, you know, that was my first exposure to invertebrates. My access to nature was basically lawns and trees. I joined Girl Scouts, though, and that was a turning point for me. When I was 10 years old, my happiest times were out on camping trips. And so I wanted to be outside, I wanted to be in nature. And I decided to study biology, and I ended up working for the Forest Service, and as a wildlife biologist. So I was really focused on vertebrate wildlife, you know, a big part of my career. It was really more recently that I came to appreciate the foundational role that invertebrates play in our lives, in all vertebrate lives.

Sharon: My concern about pesticides though, has been there for longer. I read Rachel Carson's groundbreaking book, Silent Spring, when I was in college, and I've never forgotten it. It's guided some of my choices ever since then. Yeah. It's been a journey that has come together beautifully here at Xerces—such a great place to work.

Matthew: If you could see any bug in the wild, what would it be?

Sharon: This was not hard for me to answer because I think it was my first year at Xerces I discovered this bug. I saw a picture of it and I was amazed. It's called an assassin bug. And they're all ambush predators, but the first picture of an assassin bug that I ever saw—and I thought they were all like this at first—they were the kind that literally sling the carcasses of ants on their backs, and carry them around. They're called like the corpse carrying bug. They create like a camouflage doing that. And I've been fascinated with them ever since. I think there's only some assassin bugs that do that. The species that I know of for sure that does that is in East Africa, in Uganda and Tanzania. It's called Acanthaspis petax. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing it right. Haha. But that's the bug I would love to see. And I'm not sure if I will have a chance unless I go to Africa. I hope so, someday.

Matthew: I certainly hope you do get there, and do get to see that. Because that, yeah—. What you said, the corpse assassin does—corpse carrying. What a wonderful name. Just that evokes such an image.

Rachel: Your answer to that question is great. Just the idea of throwing like ants on its back. I don't know. The whole thing is very cool. Bugs are so cool. Haha.

Sharon: They have some very bizarre behaviors. And I love that about discovering insects late in life. I'm like, “Who knew that like a leafhopper, planthopper can jump like 20 times—or even grasshoppers—wow!”. What they could do relative to us is pretty astounding sometimes.

Rachel: Yeah. Thank you so much, Sharon. It was such a pleasure to have you on Bug Banter. And we appreciate your expertise, and your encouragement, and just the hope that you have given us today. And lots of things to think about and to do. We appreciate it.

Sharon: Yeah, thank you for inviting me. It was just really a lot of fun, really a lot of fun to talk to both of you, and to really get into these topics, so I appreciate it.

Matthew: Thank you.

Rachel: Bug Banter is brought to you by the Xerces Society, a donor-based nonprofit that is working to protect insects and other invertebrates—the life that sustains us.

Rachel: If you are already a donor, thank you so much. If you want to support our work, go to xerces.org/donate. For information about this podcast or for show notes, go to xerces.org/bugbanter.